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Advisor
ronaka
Total Posts: 950
Registered on: ‎12-24-2011

Re: pre or borderline diabetes 2

I ate as a vegetarian, near vegan, for some time after diagnosis with type 2. This high fiber, low fat diet gave me a major reduction in weight, blood pressure, blood glucose, LDL cholesterol, and triglycerides. I think along with effective treatment for diabetes it is an excellent diet for diabetics. The only issue I have with it, is that it is hard to stay on. I lasted 1-2 years, but then went back to a diet that included meat, eggs, cheese, and unfortunately more saturated fat. It became necessary to add back in drugs for cholesterol and blood pressure to maintain the levels I reached with the vegan diet.

 

In short, I believe it is a good diet, but only if you can stick with it.

Ron

Not a doctor, only another T2 diabetic with, unfortunately 11 year experience. Be cautious about accepting advice, including mine, on medical conditions from the internet. It can be a good place to get ideas, but validate them with your doctor and other medical professionals first.
alan_s
Total Posts: 15,010
Topics: 208
High Fives: 1,587
Solutions: 180
Registered on: ‎10-30-2009

Re: pre or borderline diabetes 2


ronaka wrote:
In short, I believe it is a good diet, but only if you can stick with it.

I disagree that it is a good diet, but even if it worked in the short term no diet you cannot stick to is a good diet. Even the scientists agree on that: Dieting Does Not Work!

 

Diabetes is for life; we don't need a short-term diet, we need a way of eating we can maintain enjoyably and happily as a matter of course to the end of our days. We also need a diet which works to aid our blood glucose management, not exacerbate it, and minimises our need for additional medications.

 

Vegan loses on all counts. So does the ADA/CDA diet.

Cheers, Alan, Type 2, d&e metformin 2000mg, Australia.
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
There is nothing I could eat I like more than my eyes.
Type 2 Diabetes - A Personal Journey(latest: Catering For Different Tastes When Cooking)
Born Under a Wandering Star (Latest: Budapest, Hungary)
Advisor
ronaka
Total Posts: 950
Registered on: ‎12-24-2011

Re: pre or borderline diabetes 2


alan_s wrote:
Vegan loses on all counts. So does the ADA/CDA diet.

That is your opinion of course Alan. That does not make it fact. The fact is that your opinion is at odds with the Canadian Diabetes Association and the 67 professional references which it was based on. It is also at odds with the American Diabetes Association. The ADA of course are the sponsors of this forum. Have you written them about your concerns that they do not know what they are talking about? Perhaps they would be interested in knowing what is being said about them on their own forum...

Ron

Not a doctor, only another T2 diabetic with, unfortunately 11 year experience. Be cautious about accepting advice, including mine, on medical conditions from the internet. It can be a good place to get ideas, but validate them with your doctor and other medical professionals first.
alan_s
Total Posts: 15,010
Topics: 208
High Fives: 1,587
Solutions: 180
Registered on: ‎10-30-2009

Re: pre or borderline diabetes 2

[ Edited ]


ronaka wrote:
The fact is that your opinion is at odds with the Canadian Diabetes Association and the 67 professional references which it was based on. It is also at odds with the American Diabetes Association. The ADA of course are the sponsors of this forum.

I am not only aware of the fact that I disagree with all those august bodies, I am very disappointed that they not only disagree with me but with many modern researchers into nutrition and health.


ronaka wrote:
 Have you written them about your concerns that they do not know what they are talking about? Perhaps they would be interested in knowing what is being said about them on their own forum...

Yes, I have, both to my own DA and to the ADA many years ago. They did not respond: Diabetes Authorities and Diet. I suspect it was filed in the round file. I sent it to the ADA a few months after I sent it to DA.

 

As I wrote there, I am still asking the same questions when I look at their guidelines today:


Why do your dieticians continue to promote high carbohydrate consumption? What is it I'm missing, apart from complications?

And I am still missing the complications, eight years after I first wrote that letter.

 

If, by your post, you are implying some sort of threat of reporting me to the ADA establishment, feel free. I would be happy to engage in debate with them.

 

Here is a bit more ammunition for you, where I am a bit less polite about the ADA:

 

The Quality of ADA Dietary Advice

 

ADA Accomplishments in 2008 

 

Cheers, Alan, Type 2, d&e metformin 2000mg, Australia.
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
There is nothing I could eat I like more than my eyes.
Type 2 Diabetes - A Personal Journey(latest: Catering For Different Tastes When Cooking)
Born Under a Wandering Star (Latest: Budapest, Hungary)
Super Advisor
powerwalker2
Total Posts: 5,459
Registered on: ‎11-02-2009

Re: pre or borderline diabetes 2

[ Edited ]

It's not the diet.  It's what you do with it.  And different people do different things.  There is no way of knowing what every single person with diabetes does, or exactly how the person deals with it.  The success of a diet (way of eating) does not depend solely upon food, but upon one's overall plan -- including exercise, as well as individual underlying metabolism.

Nancy ~ T2 since '98 ~ 16 yrs ~ D&E 11yrs ~ treadmill, elliptical, bike 15-20 minutes 3x/day (including evening), dumbbells/resistance training, small portions heart-healthy high-fiber/low-fat fuel/carb-counting, 500mg Glucophage XR x4, 2.5mg Glucotrol XL x6, 6000IU Vit. D/day ~ RHR 53 ~ A1cs mainly between 5.9-6.9 av. 6.5
Responder
pat_b
Total Posts: 16
Registered on: ‎01-22-2012

Re: pre or borderline diabetes 2

alan_s wrote:

Vegan loses on all counts. So does the ADA/CDA diet.

 

There you go, showing your lack of knowledge once again, regarding professional advice from some of the most brilliant authorities on diabetes research and treatment. It is a travesty on your part to slander the good names of the institutions that millions of people have turned to for advice. You should be sincerely ashamed of your blatant disregard for our pillars of support. For those words you have submitted, I must say, you do not belong here in these forums. You are doing more harm than good. Please leave.    

Frequent Advisor
billsreef
Total Posts: 4,095
Registered on: ‎11-02-2009

Re: pre or borderline diabetes 2

Sometimes one just has to laugh at some things posted, like the idea of Alan not belonging here :smileyvery-happy: Quite frankly if it wasn't for the sort of dietary ideas I got from Alan and others here, my BG would be out of control or I'd be taking lots of medicine. I'll  gladly stick to a low carb diet, excercise and minimal meds...it plain works.

alan_s
Total Posts: 15,010
Topics: 208
High Fives: 1,587
Solutions: 180
Registered on: ‎10-30-2009

Re: pre or borderline diabetes 2



pat_b wrote:

alan_s wrote:

Vegan loses on all counts. So does the ADA/CDA diet.

 

There you go, showing your lack of knowledge once again, regarding professional advice from some of the most brilliant authorities on diabetes research and treatment. It is a travesty on your part to slander the good names of the institutions that millions of people have turned to for advice. You should be sincerely ashamed of your blatant disregard for our pillars of support. For those words you have submitted, I must say, you do not belong here in these forums. You are doing more harm than good. Please leave.    


Oh dear; I'm so ashamed. You are right. Mea culpa.

 

I am totally guilty of failing to revere established authorities and questioning their guidelines when they fail to work for me. I even dare to suggest they may not be working for others when they publish statements like this in their own reports:

"Since 1987, the death rate due to diabetes has increased by 45 percent"

I accept your rebuke; be aware that next time I have konjac for dinner I will perform self-flagellation with wet noodles for thirty minutes in penance.

Cheers, Alan, Type 2, d&e metformin 2000mg, Australia.
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
There is nothing I could eat I like more than my eyes.
Type 2 Diabetes - A Personal Journey(latest: Catering For Different Tastes When Cooking)
Born Under a Wandering Star (Latest: Budapest, Hungary)
Super Advisor
carlking2
Total Posts: 2,724
Registered on: ‎04-08-2011

Re: pre or borderline diabetes 2


pat_b wrote:

 

There you go, showing your lack of knowledge once again, regarding professional advice from some of the most brilliant authorities on diabetes research and treatment. It is a travesty on your part to slander the good names of the institutions that millions of people have turned to for advice. You should be sincerely ashamed of your blatant disregard for our pillars of support. For those words you have submitted, I must say, you do not belong here in these forums. You are doing more harm than good. Please leave.    


 

I am afraid Alan will last much longer around here than you will.  But I am glad of one thing....

 


pat_b wrote:

.    

After being on meds for a while, I decided to investigate the possibilites of changing to an all vegan diet.

 


 

You have finally came clean about your diet.... Remember when you were asked.......  It was a simple question

 


carlking2 wrote:

 

PLEASE let us know what this very special diet you found to reverse your diabetes


 There is no reversal or cure.... God I wish there was.  If you are here to promote a raw vegan peta agenda...Please leave.  If you are here to show how this is working for you by posting your meals and numbers...then do so.  Just quit attacking people who learned how to control this disease and are thankfully passing it on to others. 

Thanks Rick

Diagnosed T2 4/4/2011
04/04/2011, A1c 11.2
06/27/2011, A1c 5.6
10/07/2011, A1c 5.7
1/14/2012, A1c 5.4
4/17/2012, A1c 5.4
7/27/2012, A1c 5.3
01/30/2013, A1c 5.2
08/26/2013, A1c 5.3
01/26/2014, A1c 5.5
07/25/2014, A1c 5.4

Lipids TC 203, LDL 110, VLDL 20, Triglycerides 100, HDL 73
Managed by diet and exercise along....former insulin and Metformin user
Trusted Contributor
morrisolder
Total Posts: 10,544
Registered on: ‎11-28-2009

Re: pre or borderline diabetes 2


alan_s wrote:

ronaka wrote:
In short, I believe it is a good diet, but only if you can stick with it.

I disagree that it is a good diet, but even if it worked in the short term no diet you cannot stick to is a good diet. Even the scientists agree on that: Dieting Does Not Work!

 

Diabetes is for life; we don't need a short-term diet, we need a way of eating we can maintain enjoyably and happily as a matter of course to the end of our days. We also need a diet which works to aid our blood glucose management, not exacerbate it, and minimises our need for additional medications.

 

Vegan loses on all counts. So does the ADA/CDA diet.


I have to totally, well not totally, perhaps, disagree. I think you have confused Veganist with vegan.

 

As you and I both have noted, Alan, eating vegan or vegetarian  resticts non-carbohydrate food choices and thus make blood sugar management more difficult. But we both have always allowed that while more difficult, it is also possilbe to manage blood glucose following that way of eating. And there are plenty of people who manage theri blood glucose levels successfully while sticking to a vegetarian way of eating for years or even decades. Vegan too. Granted someone doing that would have to severely limit grains and limit fruit consumption, but there is a good nutrition to be had there using mainly vegetables, nuts and seeds, beans, and, if they are vegetarian, dairy. 

 

When you say veganism loses on all counts, you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater, shooting the message instead of the messenger. There really is a huge difference between telling a vegetarian or vegan who has just been diagnosed with diabetes that it "loses on all counts" or won't work, or can't be sustained, and telling them you have some extra challenges, but here's how you might be able to make it work. I've seen you use tha latter approach a number of times--and it is a much better approach.

 

As for saying that the ADA/CDA approach loses on all counts, that is contradicted by a significant minority of people here for whom that does work. Certainly not everyone, or they would not be here, but some people do find that cutting carbs in half from pre-diagnosis levels is sufficient. Whatever happened to "moderation in all things"--shouldn't that include blanket statements?

Morris

Diagnosed Type 2, with an A1c of 11.4 in 2003; averaging a 5.0 A1c since then with diet, exercise and Glipizide XL + meds for blood pressure and cholesterol. 
A bit dated, but scroll down on this page if you want to know more ...